Defending the indefensible.
catholicinfilmschool on Dec 15th 2008 02:19 am
I want to publicly say thank you to Clare of A Maiden’s Wreath for highlighting Modestia on her wonderful blog.
I went over to A Maiden’s Wreath last night to post a “thank you” message, but was a little blindsided by a second post from Clare addressing the following comment from “Lucy”:
I’m all for modesty, and there isn’t enough said about it. Living in Las Vegas, you can’t imagine how women dress to church even. You would think they were out at a dance club. I was so happy to see that there was a blog on so called “modesty”, but was very disappointed when I went to the blog and saw that the poster’s picture actually has her cleavage in it! How modest is that!!!!!!!!!?????????????!!!!!!!!!! Is it just me or are all the other pictures of sleevless dresses and cleavage imodest. I guess they are modest for movie stars! But I ask you…. could you see Mary wearing any of those clothes. I couldn’t! And I’m sure that if she were living in our day and time, she would be wearing clothes that were stylish, that didn’t bow down to fashion trends and that were modest!!!!!!!!!
I want to know what you other Catholic women think.
This post isn’t about defending myself, as I have learned in life that when someone judges you without knowing you, there’s really nothing you can do to change their minds. But since I posted the official Modestia Manifesto last week, I would like to talk a bit more about the purpose of Modestia.
My response to Lucy’s comment on Clare’s post was the following:
Clare, thanks so much for the post about my site. You and your readers are welcome to come over any time!
In response to your commenter Lucy, some of us ladies, even the Catholic ones, have larger busts. I’ve made it a point to include apparel sites on Modestia for women like me to get dresses and tops that cater to this “situation.” LOL.
But honestly, I’m a little taken aback that anyone who may have had a problem with me or my site didn’t write to me, rather than try to shake their finger at me on another site.
There should be no judgement of any other woman’s dress, even women who one would deem “immodest.” Just recently it was “Bridal Week” on Modestia because many women find it very difficult to find modest bridal wear. I know a number of devout Catholic women, some who travel to Pure Fashion shows to talk about modesty, some who even design modest fashion lines, who wore strapless gowns to their weddings. Instead of condemning them as immodest, I tried to help other women preparing for such a joyous occasion by highlighting the best and the most fashion-forward lines of modest bridal wear.
One reason why I started Modestia was to reach out to a particular audience that is being ignored. That audience wasn’t necessarily homeschooled, or even brought up in the faith at birth. Some of this audience works in the entertainment industry, or is from an ethnic group that has felt ignored by Catholic blogs and other forms of new media.
I have been interviewed about this subject, and the point I always try to make is that as members of the Universal church, we should be pastoral to all people. Though one woman may not like everything I post or find it beneficial, another woman will. There are non-Catholic men and women who read both of my sites, and if I can present anyone with the beauty of the Church, than I have done what God has asked me to do.
PS: Dissenting opinions are always encouraged. If you, Lucy, or anyone else would like to write an article for Modestia, I will most certainly post it. Topics are limited to social justice, ecclesial matters, modesty, fashion, or something within the realm.
Being at a university in southern California, I meet a lot of different types of people, some gay, some fallen away Catholics, some atheists, etc. I’m sure many of you can echo my experience. Whenever someone asks me about my faith or why I do what I do (for example volunteering hours of my time to teach moody teenagers), I tell them I “do it” because I care. I’m not out to condemn anyone, or really even instruct anyone, but rather present the Church from my perspective, listen to others, and try to communicate the simple truth that God loves them, He always has, and He always will.
There’s a guy within my social circle that works as a film producer in West Hollywood. He’s a former seminarian with plenty of orthodox Catholic friends, but working in the film industry he also has many other non-Christian friends too. Every now and then he gets all of his friends together to teach them philosophy and lead short discussions afterward. They talk about everything from life issues to the existence of God.
One Catholic may look at that situation and say, “Why isn’t he preaching the faith to them?” Another Catholic, like me for example, looks at that situation and says a prayer of thanksgiving, because someone has reached out to a group of individuals who would never had encountered Christ otherwise.
As you may have noticed, there is no list of fashion rules on this site. Modestia is not about me preaching to you. But rather, I tried to build a site that I would enjoy—one that tackles important issues like feminism, but also one that appeals to the pop culture freak in me. I try to endorse women on this site who are role models. I try to talk about the unknown jewels of Catholic culture like Marie Miller and Ali Landry. I also try to talk about tough issues so that we can build up our minds for the glory of God.
If you want me to be preachy or define matters in black and white, than this isn’t the site for you. I’ve tried to cater to all women within the spectrum of the Church (notice the chapel veil category.) From the responses I’ve gotten both here and in my private inbox, most women have found Modestia to be beneficial to their personal spiritual walk.
I guess at the end of this rather long post (sorry!), my response to Lucy and to anyone else that may find this site questionable, let’s not grumble or condemn each other, let’s have a conversation.
Pax Christi, Rebecca.
Filed in Announcements | Comments (11)
Hi Rebecca!
Well, since you invited a discussion on the matter, I’d like to put in my opinion. Honestly, I just found your blog a few days ago and felt quite the same as Lucy, and was taken aback at clothes that I view as immodest (i.e. halter tops, sleeveless, dresses above the knee, tops too low on the chest) being promoted as modest. I commend you for inviting us to have a conversation on the matter : ) So, to start with, there is an excellent book I’d like to recommend, Dressing With Dignity (Colleen Hammond), perhaps you are familiar with it, but it’s an excellent resource, because it addresses some basic things like why modesty is even important to begin with, to things like the Church’s teachings on the matter from statements about modesty from popes, cardinals, saints and scripture. It’s really invaluable for the detail it goes into about the history of the modern fashion industry and why women need more than ever to follow the example of dignity given by Our Blessed Mother.
While understanding that we may have different views on what is modest and what isn’t, I feel that, since we share this common goal, this should really really not turn into an issue that divides us!
God Bless!
Olivia, 18
P.S. Some of the wedding links you posted are great! It’s hard to see friends often sacrifice dignity and give in to a strapless gown because that’s what’s in style and “there isn’t anything else out there!” – so it’s wonderful you’ve made this great database of where to find modest and *gorgeous* gowns! I’ll pass it on. : )
I honestly don’t think I know anyone who thinks sleeveless tops are immodest. They can be depending on the cut, but most of the time they aren’t.
Love the blog!
Hi Ladies!
Thanks for the responses. I do want to clarify that the post “Baby Girls and Modesty” was not supposed to be about AL’s dress, but rather about the subject of little girls’ dress.
I personally hardly wear anything above the knee, and I try my best to cover my chest (which can sometimes be difficult), but modesty standards very depending on culture and region.
I try to select photos that cover the full range of what could be seen as modest, including a top for example that has no sleeves, but completely covers the chest.
Thanks again, for the comments.
~Rebecca
I personally don’t see a problem with any of the clothing you’ve featured on this site. I don’t see any of it being immodest… at all!
I think everyone has their own interpretations of what’s modest. Some Christians consider sleeveless dresses and shirts as immodest, some don’t. I think, since we live in one of the largest cities, where fashion is taken a little more seriously, our views of what is and isn’t modest differ from someone in a small town. It’s sort of like a mini culture shock.
The fact that you don’t have set rules about what is and isn’t modest is what makes this blog one of the best! There shouldn’t be a set of rules. Mini skirts with belly shirts? Not so much (and not so cute). A cute knee length skirt with a lovely jewel toned top? Modest and cute! I think we should be smart enough to know what is and isn’t modest… without anyone telling us what to wear.
Seriously, keep up the fantastic work on the site. I personally wouldn’t change a thing about it!
- Em
All I have to say is that you are absolutely adorable. Keep up the good work.
Sometimes modesty isn’t what you’re wearing but how you wear it. Perhaps the question isn’t just “Am I covering all the right parts?” but “Do I carry myself in a modest manner?” Am I dignified in my walk and manners or do I work it to draw attention to my body? Is my speech reflective of Christ’s love or do speak of immodest things?
Re: Emmy’s comment
At the same time, I don’t think it’s right to say that everyone who thinks something, like that sleeveless tops are not acceptable (as i do : )…that we all must be from some small town out in the country! I live in a major east coast city and spent the last year traveling around Europe, so the idea of having a ‘mini culture shock’ by seeing fashion taken seriously in a big city or something doesn’t apply at all…I just have my own personal convictions on the issue and that’s what I stick too. Again, I think it’s important to embrace and encourage each other in our shared value of modesty…and well said by Mary, in her comment.
Yes, I think modesty has more to do with behavior than anything else (or at least more weight than it is sometimes given.) A poor woman in rags could be more modest, more gentle, and more compassionate in her demeanor than someone who has access to all of the latest lines of beautifully modest clothes.
For the record Olivia, I totally encourage you in your convictions!
Olivia – my comment wasn’t directed towards you.
Sorry if you thought that. I was just talking in general. To be quite honest, I wasn’t responding to anyone’s comments. I was just responding to the post. From my own experience, city girls have different points of view when it comes to a lot of different things than girls who grew up in smaller, more community oriented towns. I was in no way attacking anyone, just making an observation from personal experience.
Dear Rebecca,
Thank you for responding to my comment about you and your website that I posted on A Maiden’s Wreath. You were absolutely right. If I had an issue with you I should of addressed you directly. I sincerely apologize! I have a knack for putting my foot in my mouth as a result of not thinking before I speak or in this case write. My comment was not thought out, but a gut reaction to my “expectations” of what your website should contain. I did not think before I spoke and my comments were judgmental and uncharitable. For this I am truly sorry.
I guess I am truly blessed to have been taught about modesty in my spiritual upbringing. I was taught to dress the way Mary would dress. (not that I ever dressed immodestly… I was too self conscious of my body).
I would have much more to say… like the fact that as a visual artist I defintiely have an appreciation for beauty in all it’s aspects… fashion included… and although I am not a slave to fashion I have always enjoyed watching the beautiful designs that have come out of people’s imaginations. I especially like vintage inspired clothing. In fact I even organized a fundraiser Show called “Fashion Through the Ages” which was basically a fashion show of the stlyes of clothing worn from the Medieval period to the 80’s but mostly focusing on the 20th century. I studied the evolution of fashion design throughout this century with passion.
I believe that as Catholics and Christians we have a responsibility to speak about God before we even speak … by the way we dress, (because God is not only Goodness and truth but also beauty)… by our demeanor (Joy should be our uniform)… and our surroundings (the way our homes look) should express the harmony which goes hand in hand with a life lived for God.
Anyhow, writing is not my forte, but I hope that you may understand just a little that I am not a prude who is against dressing styishly, just a woman who is also passionate about modesty. Not enough is said about it and I salute you for what you are doing. I have to remember that there are different degrees of modesty and that you are getting the message out there.
I have been asking myself in these days. On whom does the responsibility lie of teaching our young people about modesty… I see a lot of teens that are allowed to dress inappropriately to church and I think it’s the parent’s responsibility… but if it doesn’t happen there… then what?
Here is a link to an article on modesty by Michael O’Brien that I thought was well worth the read. Let me know what you think.
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/oct/08100805.html“>http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/oct/08100805.html
Sorry I’m not completely computer literate so if you can’t access it this way, it is on the LifeSiteNews.com and the title is “Modesty in the Culture of Shamelessness.
I must be getting on with my day, but I look forward to hearing from you and will be praying for you.
Blessings,
Lucy
Hi Lucy:
Just to let you know, I moved your post from the Contact page to the actual post for relevance.
There are absolutely no hard feelings. It’s great that young women are passionate about modesty in a time where some our priests see no reason to even think about the subject.
You’ve made some really good points in the latter half of your comment and I will address them in another post.